BAP January Data update

Discussion in 'BAP question and answer' started by tjudy, Feb 7, 2017.

  1. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    It is as done as I will get it... Randy and Patrick are double checking my work, then Randy will convert them to PDF and post them. Please check over your charts and let me know if you see any errors, especially your level in the program (junior, senior, advanced, etc...). There are several changes to keep in mind, so please familiarize yourself with them before reporting errors:
    • The organization of the charts are different, because we need to have each data item in its own cell so we can import it all to the database more easily when it is ready.
    • There are a lot of genus and species name changes... please see the tutorial on how those were verified if you think that something is wrong. The biggest issue will be undescribed cichlids that are not in the CAS or FB databases. The resource I am using to verify those is Cichlidae.info.
    • Variants appear in the class column as Va, Vb, Vc, Vd followed by the 5 points you get for spawning a variant.
    • Prior to this BAP year, you received 5 bonus points for a new variant of a species if you were the first person to spawn it. That rule changed, and now only the first person to spawn the species gets that bonus. So you may see, for example, "Vb 5 5" for a variant you submitted for the 2016 season or earlier, but the same type of submission for 2017 will be "Vb 5 _".
    • BoY standings are also up to date. Total points for the year with total spawns for the year as tie breaker
    The species point chart is also very different. All the species that have not been spawned have been removed. The chart is no longer organized by genre - class - genus. Now it is organized by genre-genus-species-variant. This should make it a lot easier to see if the species you are working with has been submitted or not.

    We will have a new submission form coming out soon, probably before the next meeting... but maybe not. We are going to do away with the part of the form where you check the class of the fish. Instead, if the species is NOT already on the chart you will be directed to suggest a class. If the species is on the chart, the BAP committee will assign the points during the verification of your spawn.

    This was a LOT of work. I have not gone through the charts yet without finding an error, so I suspect that there are still a few mistakes. Please be gentle with your criticism, tell me the errors in PM and I will fix them for the next update.
    bahamafj11 likes this.
  2. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    Thanks to the BAP committee for all their hard work!
  3. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    The charts are rendering well, except for the species point chart... Randy is working on that one.
  4. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Thanks for your hard work
  5. Megan

    Megan Executive Board Staff Member

    Thank you, Ted & Randy, for all your hard work on this project.
  6. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    I reviewed the changes and updates. Excellent . Easy to read and understand . Very pleased how it looks . Thank you
  7. fishlady

    fishlady Well-Known Member

    Thanks for taking to the time to do this.
  8. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Question on new forms with point suggestions. Will there be special instructions or a write up one would do when submitting a new species for the club when it comes to a C or D class fish as it pertains to our criteria for those spawns?
  9. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    I would rather keep the form as simple as possible with a line that says something like 'If this spawn is a first for the species in the club, suggest the class level it should be in: ____" . The committee is going to decide upon the difficulty of the species, based mostly on what other similar species are valued at. If what the committee comes up with is different than what you suggest, then you will get a phone call or email to discuss it.
  10. imprezars

    imprezars Active Member

    Thanks guys for all your hard work.

    Ben
  11. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Easy enough that way. So long as everyone follows our criteria for new club species Baps it shouldn't be too much a headache for BAP Committee then. We do our research and Document our care, breeding and fry rearing there shouldn't be many issues with a, b or c class baps. D is going to be more challenging with certain groups of fish to prove all findings of facts .

    Is this rule below going to be changed or modified to add more requirements as it pertains to a C or D class submitting? Like tossing out the rarity of a species.


    Not all species are
    listed on the table. If there is a question about the correct class in which to place a species,
    the breeder should attempt to have that determination made prior to submitting the species.
    Designation of class for a species new to the BAP program is determined by the BAP
    committee and/or chairperson. Criteria for the level of difficulty include, but are not limited
    to:
    ! rarity of the species
    ! difficulty of inducing a spawn
    ! difficulty of rearing the fry
    ! length of time for fish to become sexually mature
    ! water chemistry requirements
    ! aggression management
    ! space requirements
  12. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    I am not a big fan of rarity of species, because it is only rare until it is being passed around the club. That list is intended to be a list of things that are taken into consideration.
  13. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    That's what we were discussing once . I also feel the same.
  14. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    Several of these factors can change, especially after that first spawn. In general, that first spawn of wild caught fish will likely be much more difficult than subsequent spawns, especially the first couple generations, after that inbreeding could make things more difficult again (not necessarily but could). Take the Mesonauta guyanae I just got a spawn out of as an example. Megan had wild caught fish that she had to be careful with and I'm sure provide excellent water quality and really work hard to get to spawn. I, on the other hand, didn't even think they were big enough to spawn. Not that I neglected the water quality or wasn't providing a good diet, I was, but more to grow than spawn. So does that mean the fish should be a different class after that first spawn, probably not, but some of the factors we use to determine class are valid but change after that first spawn. Were the Mesonauta guyanae rare when Megan first spawned them, I would say yes, even the more common festivums are uncommon in pet stores so a different species would definitely be uncommon. Were they dificult to spawn? Megan would be better able to answer that question but I suspect yes. For me were they rare, probably but much less so, many of us in the club have them now and I suspect in a year or so any one who wants them should be able to get them easily. Difficult to spawn? I would say no. You could make an argument that maybe I'm a better aquarist than Megan but I wouldn't, I've see Megan's tanks and they are fantastic, she has some unusual fish and does quite well with them.

    So while some factors may seem less useful or less accurate than others let's keep in mind that the first spawn is likely to be more difficult, that's why we get extra points for it but it shouldn't diminish the value of a spawn, if evryone with a species like the Mesonauta sudenly stopped keeping them they would be rare again, they would be harder to spawn again. Just because the club might collectively be good at raising a particular species doesn't mean they are easier in general. Maybe a good rule of thumb would be how easy or difficult would this fish be to spawn for someone who lives in our area but isn't in our club, or just joined and hasn't had a chance to network with club members.
  15. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    The point values never change once a species is bapped and placed in a point value. Your fish will be the exact same points that Megan received. That species is a solid C . Not an easy fish bred to often in the home aquarium .Everything the BAP committee takes into consideration. Even ones personal level of experience breeding fish . Up here I have to make my water hard for certain species, down in the southern part by you guys , the water is hard so you need to make it soft and visa versa. I've had lengthy talks with our BAP committee members about what factors and experience they consider. The thing is that we can't be flooded with C and D class fish for every species considered rare in the hobby. I keep many rare to the hobby species and also many very common. Some of my super rare fish breed like rabbits while I cant get an A class fish to breed lol. Some of us buy fry and grow them up to sexual maturity and others buy proven breeders that can spawn within weeks or less.
    The suggest a class we need to be responsible in our research and how we accomplished a successful spawn and rearing of the fry. If I were to BAP let's say, my haplochromis brownae on its rarity in the hobby and considering it was once on the extinct list at one time, should I bap it as a C because of that? I dont think so. To me it's an A class difficulty but I would suggest it as a B like most other victoria species of a similar genus because of its terrible aggression when breeding, large 55 gallons and fry care since you have to strip fry and raise them in a different tank. This is just my experience with this species . If I would suggest an A, most likely BAP committee would list it as a B because of similar species and genus already bapped. If I tried for a C class because they are rare or wild caught , they would list it as a B where it belongs.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
  16. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    I know they don't change going backwards but if something changes going forward fish can and have been reclassified.

    My point was pointing out how some of the factors we consider for classifying a new species might change depending on the club members and our collective interests. Imagine that the club suddenly because enamored with loaches and someone bred, for example, Pangio kuhlii and it turned out that other Pangio species were similar to breed. If the original P. kuhlii was classified as a D class fish but the club learned a lot and suddenly breeding reports for 5 other Pangio species came in would that mean that the new Pangios were easier to breed and therefore should be a B class when one of the most commonly available is a D? I wouldn't think so but our collective experience may have made subsequent related species easier to breed, that's why I used the example of someone in our area not in the club as the benchmark.
    SteveS likes this.
  17. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    I trust in our BAP committee to decide were a fish should be placed. You made valid points . In many cases members of the same genus can all have different point values. Just look on the list of what already has been spawned. That's why we get to suggest a class.
  18. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    I see what you mean now Sean. If a species or similar species was bapped as a B once just by one person, you are asking if it can be increased to a C ? Or something like that so there is a more collective consensus ? Visa versa
  19. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    I have one like that also coming up opposite of what you are talking about. Altolamprologus compressiceps. On the list a close relative, altolamprologus calvus, had been bapped as a B . I'm going to suggest a C for Altolamprologus compressiceps. These are widely known as not a beginner fish for a breeding project. An easy fish to keep as they aren't territorial or that aggressive. Tank size isnt a big issue. 20 gallons if fine. They aren't typically hard to induce a spawn if properly conditioned. The hard part is keeping the female alive and knowing when to pull her and the fry out before she dies. The male doesn't let her leave once she is in the cave. The male also will eat the fry immediately once they leave the cave so you need to move them into a separate tank to raise the fry. Highly predatory. Fry are sensitive to change in water quality and temps. Anything cooler than 5 degrees kills them off. They only eat live small foods . I've lost an entire broods by either not feeding them right or by not keeping the quality of water stable. These grow extremely slow. 2 months old and still not much growth size as when I pulled them. Sexual maturity can take up to 2 years or more. This was just my experience . Someone down the road might breed these like convicts or not have any luck at all for years. This is what BAP would probably like to see when it comes to suggesting a class

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