Discussion in 'CBP questions and answers' started by Marine590622, Aug 23, 2012.

  1. Marine590622

    Marine590622 Advisory Board Staff Member

    I have the Black Bar Endler which I got from AdrianHD at SwampRiverAquatics. When I got these I researched them and was led to believe they are threatened in the wild but are pretty prolific in the hobby. I have since kept them in thier own 20 gallon and only put other species in that tank that had no threat of hybridization. I got them and dedicated myself to keeping a pure line of them before I was even aware of the redlist and C.A.R.E.S.

    On the trip to Milwaukee with Dr Paul V. Loiselle I brought them up and Dr. Loiselle indicated they are not as threatened in the wild as I once thought.

    But then Ted pointed out that there is the issue of how easily these hybridize, and that this would be a species that we might want to lists as a MAAH priority species for that reason.

    While I don't feel like I "have any skin in the game" I do keep these and intend to continue keeping them. Whichever way the club decides to handle this I will continue to keep a pure line.

    So should we list them on our Priority list or not?

    The fact of the matter is that for 30 dollars shipping included I can have a fresh pair of class N endlers shipped to my door.
  2. tjudy

    tjudy Executive Board Staff Member

    I have spoken with a contact in Venezuela (Ivan Mikolji... if you have not seen his work, check it out: http://www.mikolji.com/HOME.html_ ). I was not aware that exportation of live fish from Venezuela is forbidden. Even scientists are required to take out only preserved specimens, and even then the project has to be a joint venture with a Venezuelan university.

    That means that there is a definite legal barrier to ever getting and influx of new blood for Endler's live bearers. However, it also puts a great deal of suspicion on anyone saying that they have wild fish, or even a couple generations of wild fish.

    Randy... if we are going to try to include Endler's, we need iron clad verification of source material. I am not familiar with the program you obtained your 'n-class' endler's from. Can you point us in the direction of that source so we can do some digging?
  3. Dave

    Dave Moderator Staff Member

    The "n-class" of Endler's is likely the closest you are going to get for any tracking of this species in the US. I am all for adding Endler's to the list. One link is this one: http://endlers-usa.com/viewtopic.php?t=73 but there may be others.

    The biggest issue I have with this system is that Native line-bred, not my term, are given this N Class. While they are not hybrids, they have been put through a selective "funnel" and have lost at least some, if not most, of their wild variability. So, while it would be nice to keep track of the pure, line-bred strains, only the those fish in the hobby that are not line bred should be eligble for CBP, IMHO. This should apply to any species, not just Endler's. So for example, albino lines would not qualify, IMHO.

    Just my thoughts.
  4. aquaticclarity

    aquaticclarity Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Wild caught Venezuelan fish are coming into the US on occasion in very limited numbers and an even more limited selection. Or at least wild caught fish that are found in Venezuela (and bordering countries). I don't believe the fish are shipping out of Venezuela but are crossing the boarders and being shipped out (like a lot of Brazilian fish before the export ban was loosened).
  5. Dave

    Dave Moderator Staff Member

    There is still a legal barrier that qualifies this fish for the CBA.
  6. TANK

    TANK Active Member

    (Class N): Any Endler's Livebearer (and progeny) that can be shown to have originated from their native waters in Venezuela will be considered a 'Class N' Endler.
  7. tjudy

    tjudy Executive Board Staff Member

    I agree with Dave.... 'sports' should not qualify. A 'sport' is a phenotype that is fundamentally different than wild type that pops up in the natural gene expression of a population BUT IS THEN SELECTED FOR BY THE AQUARIST. Such as having an albino appear and then working to secure the albino as a pure strain. I do nto have a problem with doing that, but they should not be distributed as CBP fish.

    Herein lies the problem with Endler's live bearers. There are still a lot of scientists who do not consider them anything more than an isolated population of guppy that had reached a zenith of consistent phenotypic expression when rediscovered by Endler in 1975. It has been proven (by Endler) that populations of guppies in the wild can have the average phenotype of a population stabilize very rapidly, and then change again very rapidly when the selective pressure changes. Endler is the guy who manipulated predator densities and types of predators in isolated pools (separated by water falls) and tracked the phenotypes of males in those pools over time. The 2005 paper that elevated the Endler's live bearer to species status was bases upon color and behavior... two factors that are not considered strong arguments in taxonomy. I am still researching it, but Ted Colleti published a TFH column in 2006 in which he stated that the authors of the 2005 paper did not use any molecular data to classify the species, and that molecular work that had been done supported the Endler's as being a population of P. reticulata... the common guppy.

    To further complicate things, the other populations of Endler's that look a little different probably should not be considered Endler's at all, based upon the the classifying paper that uses color pattern as the defining characteristic separating the species from all other Poecilia. If the fish are different enough from black-bar Endler's (the original) to be called 'peacock' or other color pattern... how can they be P. wingei? That argument assumes that all the different patterns originate from wild stock anyway.

    Consider this... the N, K & P classification system is an invention by a hobbyist for fish that are in the hobby. Granted, the goal of the classification system is to preserve the Endler's livebearer in its wild form; but this is a hobby project... not a museum, zoo, university or government species maintenance program. The best I can tell from the three or four websites I have visited, the guys who are really pushing the N, K & P system have a LOT of skin in the game.

    According to my source in Venezuela, Chavez has effectively outlawed export of live fish by instituting an export permit system for EVERYTHING natural in Venezuela that does NOT specifically list tropical fish. Nobody is willing to give a permit to export tropical fish because it is not clear if it is legal to give permit or not... and if a person gives a permit for something that is NOT legal to export s/he may lost his job or worse. This is a case where since the fish are not on a list of things that can be permitted to export, they are not exported. Some fish are smuggled out of Venezuela and exported from Columbia.

    The other facts I am trying to run down are the statements that the locations where the fish were collected from are now destroyed or have lost their populations. That is a common theme on the Endler's websites.

    I am trying to remain noncommittal about the conservation priority of Poecilia wingei. I have placed a question to the livebearer coordinator for the CARES Preservation Program (Michi Tobler). I cannot imaging that with all the hubbub about P. wingei that the fish has not been considered by CARES. If they have not placed the fish on their priority list, we should know why not.
  8. Marine590622

    Marine590622 Advisory Board Staff Member

    "The other facts I am trying to run down are the statements that the locations where the fish were collected from are now destroyed or have lost their populations. That is a common theme on the Endler's websites."

    Based on what Paul said when I was discussing this with him. The colection point that my Endlers came from may verry well be gone, but overall they are doing fine in the wild.
  9. tjudy

    tjudy Executive Board Staff Member

    I have kicked these questions up to CARES to see what there opinion is. P. wingei is not listed as a priority species on their list, and I would like to know why not. It may be that the species has not been evaluated, and now they will do that and make a decision.

    There are an awful lot of questions and inconsistencies on the web about this fish for me to feel comfortable making it a priority species without the input from some other people. Hopefully this will take a lot of time.
  10. fishlady

    fishlady Executive Board

    Has anything been determined about these? Randy was kind enough to give me some to work with and I have quite a few now so could bring them in for cbp if they qualify.
  11. Marine590622

    Marine590622 Advisory Board Staff Member

    Pat I asked Paul Loiselle when he was her and he indicated that while specific populations might have thrreats this species is so widely distributed they are not threatened overall. So while I still keep my group, I have moved on to other species for conservation.
  12. fishlady

    fishlady Executive Board

    oh ok thanks for letting me know. I do have other cares species I am working with. Perhaps I should just donate some for the auction then.

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