Ornamental Aulonocara hybrid- Lavender Ice Peacock- BAP ruling requested

Discussion in 'BAP question and answer' started by Sean S, Jan 27, 2017.

  1. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    I have a peacock hybrid that I got last summer from Denny Rogers, one of the speakers at the EIAA summer seminar. They are called Lavender Ice and are from the OB peacock line. The only other place I have found them for sale is Rainforest Tropicals.

    When I got them the female was holding so I am not sure who fathered that first group but the offspring were 50% Lavender Ice and 50% OB peacocks. I just stripped the female of a batch yesterday that was fathered by my Lavender Ice male. I got 59 fry and it appears that about 10-15 of them are OB, I will have a better idea when they get a bit bigger and the patterns are a little easier to discern. If the Lavender Ice trait is dominant to the OB trait and the father of the first batch was an OB and my female is het for OB the result should be the 50/50 mix in the first batch. If my male is also het for OB I would expect the offspring of my two fish would be about 25% OB which this batch is in the range I would expect (approximately 17% at 10 and 25% at 15).

    So, after that explanation, what would be the BAP committee's ruling on whether I can submit these fish. If you would like additional information I will do my best to provide it.

    Additionally, a comment as to whether an open post like this is the best way to request this would be helpful. I thought at least for this first one it might be a good case study to show others what or what not to do.

    I can provide pictures if needed and I believe I posted a video of part of the spawning on my facebook page.
  2. tjudy

    tjudy Executive Board Staff Member

    From the BAP Rules:
    This has become an issue in the past few months... rather suddenly... and now the BAP committee is going to have to better define a metric to apply this rule against. So I am asking for input. In as few words as possible, define the phrase 'established and recognized in the aquarium hobby'. Then do the same for 'will breed true'. Please... let's not turn this into a heated debate. All I really want is the definitions from individuals. Once we have several, then we can debate... :confused:
  3. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    To all who may post, don't worry about my feelings on the subject. I purposely posted this thread hoping that we can make things easier going forward. If you think hybrids are horrible and we shouldn't allow them, great (I used to have that opinion), If you think anything verifiable should go, great. The opinions of all will help shape this fuzzy part of the rules so don't be shy, speak up. And if you don't speak up, don't complain later if you don'tlike the outcome, you have been given a chance.
  4. SteveS

    SteveS Advisory Board

    I myself don't have a problem with the hybrid peacocks . A lot of people keep them . At every swap or auctiin there is tons of them . I have kept and bapped an ob peacock . They have been in the hobby for years. The problem is that people are making new strains at home . The only hybrid peacocks that are established I know of are ob, tangerine, Apache and dragon blood or albino dragon blood.

    Now new ob fish are popping up like different ob forms of "ahli" , C. borleyi, dimidiochromis compressiceps and a couple other more popular haps. Seen these coming from old world exotics and for sale quite regularly online from other sources.

    I see where it's confusing when a new hybrid pops up and verifying if it's a true breeding strain of hybrid or just made up .If it's from a reputable breeder or source like old world, live fish direct, cichlid lovers , ect. Than it can probably be considered a "new, strain to the hobby as these online places usually have the new hottest thing in the line bred, hybrid cichlids.
  5. fishlady

    fishlady Executive Board

    No hybrids, opens a can of worms.
  6. SteveS

    SteveS Advisory Board

    The problem is if all hybrid ornamental fish and mutations are eliminated from BAP , then really every thing else that isn't a pure wild form should also . Guppies, swordtails, angelfish, discus ect and any other color mutation or hybrid fish out there.

    BAP is for encouraging people to breed fish. Some people like the different color strains of fish and hybrids. Without BAP allowing any ornamental strains of fish would hurt the revenue that let's us have events like Cataclysm or paying for speakers and discourage some participating if they couldn't BAP a color strain of their guppy ect.
  7. tjudy

    tjudy Executive Board Staff Member

    Trying to get this back on track.... in as few words as possible and without debate, please define:

    'established and recognized in the aquarium hobby'


    'will breed true'
  8. SteveS

    SteveS Advisory Board

    Whether loved or hated they aren't going to go away. They are a big part of the hobby and it's what most new hobbiests are introduced to. I myself am not a big fan of hybrid cichlids , but have kept them in the past because they go well at auctions and swaps and pay for fish food. People love color.
    Ask me what I think of flower horns lol. If someone wants to bap them , good for them breeding them and getting points they deserve.

    BAP For me is just a personal goal and bragging rights I want to accomplish. My way of contributions to the club. Who ever brings in whatever ornamental BAP doesn't hurt me in any way or the hobby. It only makes the bap committee job of verifying a strain more difficult. That's were the hobbiest them self should have the information and sources ready themselves so it's easy to verify a new ornamental strain.
  9. SteveS

    SteveS Advisory Board

    Established/ recognized.
    Can be found from at least 3 sources with a quick Google as the top 3 sources of information of fish in question

    Will breed true
    90% or higher of fry yield will grow up to look identical in color and shape to parents.
    tjudy likes this.
  10. SteveS

    SteveS Advisory Board

    Back on topic. If Sean finds 3 sources were these are easily found and breed 90% true to form they should be allowed.
  11. SteveS

    SteveS Advisory Board

    Back on topic again in Seans defense . I believe what you have Sean is just a case of a fancy name givin to aulonocara sp. Dragons blood. That's what I believe would be correct. I seen your fish and had those young here from your " lavender ice" you brought over. Looked no different than dragon blood juvies.
  12. Megan

    Megan Executive Board Staff Member

    I think est. and recognized in the aquarium hobby means that they have been a part of the hobby for a long time - perhaps decades.

    Breeds true to me equals 100% true off-spring if two full blooded adults are bred.
  13. Dave

    Dave Moderator Staff Member

    Breeds true: means that when you breed like fish together they will produce a predictable ratio of phenotypes in the offspring without throwing individuals that resemble the original non-hybrid parents. In other words, the OB morph above won't throw mbuna looking fish. All offspring should morphologically resemble the hybrid parents, but could vary in color patterns and finage. They must reproduce without the need to back cross. If the line is based on a colormorph, then when like individuals breed they must produce a predictable ratio of color phenotypes.

    Established in the hobby: this is tough because a newly identified fish in the wild is not established, but should be accepted. So, only as it would pertain to hybrids, it must have been in the hobby for at least 1 year at a commercial level from multiples sources. For new color morphs they must be recognized by any national fish club as eligible for judging in a fish show. This would pertain to judged color morphs of guppies, angels, and bettas, but perhaps others.

    If a "new" fish is only being sold from a single source, then chances are it is just a line-bred fish that belongs with an established group, like the dragonbloods.
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
  14. Megan

    Megan Executive Board Staff Member

    Dave said much better what I was trying to say and brought up the point of newly discovered wild fish. I was only considering hybrids, like the OB peacock.
    SteveS likes this.
  15. SteveS

    SteveS Advisory Board

    I was only considering hybrids too . Natural fish is just common sense. All offspring should be 100 Percent true And no need for being established, just described
  16. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    So, the fry are getting bigger, I anticipate by March possibly or April likely they will be large enough to BAP. If we are going with a concensus on eligibility I am not sure there is a clear one but multiple sources seem a common theme. I am willing to donate a group of these fish to the club whether I get BAP points or not, unless I hear otherwise I will assume these fish are ineligible at the moment unless they can be verified from additional sources.

    Another interesting question- If the OB offspring of these fish breed true as OB peacocks would they be eligible? Clearly they would have non OB in their genes but since they are a hybrid and any OB you might purchase could theoretically have similar parentage would in matter?

    I just keep opening more cans of worms, good thing worms make great fish food ;)
  17. tjudy

    tjudy Executive Board Staff Member

    The BAP committee has not had a chance to sit down and talk about this rule interpretation, yet. The spreadsheets have been taking up my time, as well as the Garden Expo. I will try to set up a time to meet with Patrick and Randy sometime before the February meeting to talk about how we will interpret the rule, and how to reword the rule so it is more clear in the next rules revision.

    What we are not going to do is establish a precedent for "Genus sp. 'ornamental'" as a catch-all for a fish that is not a known variety. That would open the door for people to make random crosses between species or strains and submit them to BAP. The word 'ornamental' describes all fish that are not a wild phenotype, whether they are line bred strains of a species or hybrids. 'Ornamental' is not a variety on its own.

    I suspect that we will settle on three commercial sources, including one wholesaler or large commercial producer (fish farm). I have access to a wide variety of lists from around the world, so if a new color form of guppy, angelfish, peacock or betta is commercially available, I am confident that I will be able to find it. All of the color forms of livebearers that are currently in the species point table I was able to locate commercial sources for pretty easily.

    I am going to suggest that we address the multiple phenotypes in a single spawn by instituting a 50% rule. The phenotype/variety/color form should comprise 50% of the offspring in a spawn. That number is not random. Assuming that a phenotype is governed by basic genetic interactions, selective breeding should be able to create a strain that produces 50% of the desired form consistently. 100% is not realistic when you take into consideration all of the semi-lethal or weakened homozygous genotypes that exist. For example, producers of black angelfish will usually spawn a heterozygous black angel (Bb) to a homozygous gold angel (bb), because the homozygous dominant (BB) black angels are often weak and poor breeders. The result of that Bb x bb cross will be 50:50 ratio of black:gold. This is an acceptable strategy to maintain the health and vitality of the strain. Same scenario happens with albino Pelvicachromis pulcher. In some cases, be may accept as low as a 25% phenotype when it can be shown that the genetic management of the strain requires that the form is produced at that low ratio.

    As far as your peacocks are concerned... You describe the phenotypic ratio in the offspring, but without further test crossing you cannot be sure of the genetic interaction. If you grow out the OB, spawn them and all the fry are OB, then you have a clean OB strain to submit to BAP.
  18. Dave

    Dave Moderator Staff Member

    Some albino forms are well maintained using heterozygous adults, like with Ancistrus sp. "Albino", which would yield 25% albino. The only downside is that the "brown" phenotype may carry the albino gene. In my experience this has not been an issue for most people. For me the question isn't about submitting homozygous recessive fish from a 50% hatch versus 25% hatch, but the genotypic make up of the remaining wild-type or non-recessive offspring, and how they might be submitted considering we have an example of how to submit fry from a hatch with mixed phenotypes. This may have already been mentioned, but perhaps the possible genotypes should be included on the bag label to inform the bidders.
    Sean S likes this.
  19. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    Adding the genotype was suggested by Ted in the thread I started on submitting angelfish color varieties, I think that is a good idea for species with known genetic mutations.
  20. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    The fry should be ready by the March meeting, size wise. I will bring in a group to donate to the club, I will post some good pictures of the parents (if I can get them) here. I will bring a BAP form filled out and if the committee says they are ineligible I can trash the form.

    I hope this discussion has helped to define hybrids going forward.

    FYI, googling Lavender Ice Peacock, first hit is this post, lol:D

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