Predictable crosses and BAP submissions question

Discussion in 'BAP question and answer' started by Sean S, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    OK, after reading Ted's excellent stickies on ornamental strains I am uncertain as to whether I did something correctly for my angelfish BAP submission or if I shouldn't have submitted them. I have a pair of angelfish that consists of a zebra pinoy standard fin male (D/+, Z/+, +/+, bp/bp) and a blue silver veil female (+/+, +/+, V/+, bp/bp). These fish will produce predictable offspring but there will be 8 varieties (4 if you don't sort for veil because that often takes longer to determine). I have raised multiple spawns from this pair and they spawn about every 8-10 days. I had three different spawns that I submitted BAP angels from at the last meeting and I have one more group growing out that I intend to submit in February or March depending on growth.

    Initially I read the stickies and because the result is predictable and the predicted offspring were produced that my submissions were fine, that was how I interpreted the rules initially. After further reading I am less certain because some of the types produced in my cross could be produced at 100% rate if the parents are homozygous for the traits in question, I could certainly decrease the number of genotypes to 50% of two types if I take into account the deleterious effects of the dark gene and account for that.

    Did I follow the BAP rules or not? I think I did but am uncertain.

    For those interested the predicted offspring of my pair are as follows
    12.5% Blue silver standard fin
    12.5% Blue silver veil
    12.5% Blue zebra standard fin
    12.5% Blue zebra veil
    12.5% Pinoy (sometimes referred to as black lace pinoy) standard fin
    12.5% Pinoy veil
    12.5% Zebra Pinoy standard fin
    12.5% Zebra Pinoy veil
  2. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    Angelfish are a pain... ;)

    I assume that you are using a genetics calculator like this one to make your prediction: Angelfins.ca

    Once upon a time we thought of ornamental angelfish as pure strains and we pretty much never crossed them unless we were trying to create a new variety. When I was breeding a lot of angels, for example, I would never have contaminated my koi strain by breeding one with a silver angel. Angel breeders today do not seem to look at the strain as a whole, but instead look at the individual loci and the genes that are being expressed. From a genetics perspective this is really cool and a lot of fun to play with.

    As a BAP committee member I would not argue against you making this spawn and submitting the different offspring as separate strains. But this situation does suggest that we could also take all of the angelfish color forms and lump them all into one strain that we call Pterophyllum scalare 'ornamental', because the hobby of breeding ornamental angels no longer seems to value maintaining strains that breed true. I would not want to do that, because then we are not encouraging people interested in working with angelfish color forms to participate in BAP.

    Personally, I would not do it that way. I would want to keep angel strains that produce a consistent phenotype in each generation and develop it as an isolated strain. But that is me...

    When you submit the offspring to the auction, I suggest that you include a short description of the phenotype, the genotype that creates it and what will happen when the fish are spawned with each other. When you submit the Pinoy zebra veil fry (D/+,Z/+,+/+,+/+, +/+, V/+,+/+,+/+,pb/pb), the offspring from those will produce 15 different phenotypes and 27 different genotypes... not really what someone who thinks they are producing Pinoy zebra veils will expect.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
  3. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    To play devils advocate, the pinoy zebra veils all have the same genetics, the only variable that would reduce the number of possible types would be if the fish were homozygous for zebra because that trait is expressed the same in the heterozygous and homozygous condition. However that same expression makes it impossible to tell if a fish is het for zebra until it is crossed with a silver. Both the dark gene and the veil gene express differently whether the fish has one or two copies of gene. So the Pinoy zebra veil variety breeds true, in the sense that the offspring are predictable but even if I had used two pinoy zebra veils to produce the ones submitted for BAP the resultant offspring would produce multiple phenotypes and genotypes because of the nature of the variety and the codominant genes that cause it's expression. While I agree including the genotype of the fish would have been a good idea and I will do so in the future, as stated, it is also incumbent upon the breeder to determine what offspring their fish will produce. That was what I did when I purchased my angels and they started to pair off.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  4. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    Also, I did use a genetics calcualtor to verify my calculations but, as I learned in my Biology classes, I did the initial calculations on paper using Punnett squares. These are very useful for any trait that exhibits standard Mendelian genetics like most angelfish traits do. It will work for any single locus trait or any combination of single locus traits, albeit the complexity increases with each additional trait.

    It doesn't work for multiple loci traits, at least the standard one we learn in Biology class doesn't, I haven't tried applying it to a known multple loci trait (are there any that have been mapped out?). Multiple loci traits tend to be difficult to predict and are best selectively bred for so the line improves over time until it breeds true. Luckily for me most of the angelfish traits are single locus traits.
  5. Dave

    Dave Moderator Staff Member

    You can use a branch diagram for more than a dihybrid cross.
  6. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    Thanks Dave, that is probably much easier for most people when considering all the possible single locus traits (I think angels are up to nine). I was hoping most people would remember their Punnett sqaure's from high school biology as a starting point.
  7. waterboy

    waterboy Active Member

    LOL, Actually I think it is up to 13 recognized ones now.

    1. Dark D partially dominant Dark locus
    2. Marble M partially dominant Dark locus
    3. Goldmarble Gm partially dominant Dark locus
    4. Gold g recessive characteristic Dark locus
    5. Stripeless S partially dominant Stripeless locus
    6. Zebra Z partially dominant Stripeless locus
    7. Half-black h recessive characteristic Halfblack locus
    8. Smokey Sm partially dominant Smokey locus
    9. Pearl p recessive characteristic Pearl locus
    10. Streaked St partially dominant Streaked locus
    11. Veil V partially dominant Veil locus
    12. Albino a recessive characteristic Albino locus
    13. Philippine Blue pb recessive characteristic Blue locus


    And another possible new one not yet characterized.

    Bulgarian Green bg recessive characteristic? Locus?
  8. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    BAP is going to accept different phenotypes of angelfish, but the first spawn of species extra points was awarded a long time ago. We had a rules interpretation problem that resulted in some people getting the extra points for each new variant that they submitted. The award goes to the first spawn of a species... regardless of variant. An angelfish is a class B fish and worth 10 points. Everyone will get that for the first angel they submit. After that a breeder can get 5 points for each variant.
  9. Dave

    Dave Moderator Staff Member

    That variant rule was a decision at the time to increase BAP submissions for people that like to concentrate on livebearers and angelfish. I think it is fine, and probably best, to revert to the original rule of bonus points on a per species basis only.
    tjudy likes this.
  10. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    I was talking about loci, but if you are going with mutations then 13 is correct, some loci have more than one mutation. It might be more once the bulgarian green genetics are worked out.
  11. waterboy

    waterboy Active Member

    Yes I realized that after it was too late to edit the post. Just one of the benefits of the aging process.
    SteveS likes this.
  12. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Too confusing for me. I'll just BAP them as angel fish lol. I forgot what color I have anyways. One is blue with stripes and the other is smokey with stripes. :p
    Tom and waterboy like this.
  13. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    I believe you have a blue silver and a Pinoy (blue silver with dark gene). Smokey is a completely different variety and I know I did not give you one of those as I only had one and still have it.

    You will only get two different varities with that cross, half will be blue silver, the other half Pinoy.
    Tom and SteveS like this.
  14. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    I'll write that down on their tank. They are at the stage where the eggs hatch but parents aren't the best. The male is not understanding what to do yet with fry but eat them after the female moves them to the corner lol.
    Tom and Sean S like this.

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