species point chart/BAP form questions

Discussion in 'BAP question and answer' started by SteveS, Jan 22, 2017.

  1. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    I read the topic about filling in our BAP forms correctly. I myself am guilty of possibly making it confusing as I have put the current name and synonymous name or location on the same line. Mostly because our species chart is pretty out dated also in some areas. Here is an example of a bap I just did. Pseudotropheus cyanerhabdos " maingano " on our BAP point chart it is melanochromis cyanerhabdos. This I new the genus changed and was a previous submitted fish by another member. I do my best to keep up with changes in the world of cichlidae. Where I had the maingano it looks like on the form it does look like cyanerhabdos maingano species name . Should the location name be in the common name/color form or variety spot. To me that place looks like just for a trade name, color form of a tank strain or variety ( like long fin or something ) . Maybe having a specific line for location if known would help . I normally just list the common name on that line or if it's guppy or such I would put the color form and tail variety.
  2. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Here is another of a BAP I just did.
    OSCURA HERTEROSPLILA . I put in the scientific name spot as Oscura( vieja) herterosplila. I put the vieja catch all genus in parenthesis as that what it is listed as in our point chart. Common name monte Christo cichlid in the correct spot. I put the vieja in there so it would help the BAP Committee find it as a first spawn confirmation and not as the same species that had a genus or species revision. On this fish it has gone under a few different names. Vieja herterosplila, heterospilus, heterospilum. Paratheraps heterospilus, Cichlasoma heterospilum , ect. Recently central american cichlids have gone under a big revision in early 2016. Mostly I use cichlid room companion ( cichlidae.com) for most cichlids. On their profile they list it as vieja herterosplila. In their notification section it mentions oscura herterosplila as " reserve for use". Searching the CA catalog of fishes they have it as Oscura herterosplila . So that is current for now at least. So that I did correct on the BAP form through research .
  3. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Any ideas on making the species chart list a bit more user friendly . When there is a genus or species change, like a an example of species Metriaclima sp. "Elongatus Yellow Tail" now is Metriaclima flavicauda. Cynotilapia afra is now cynotilapia zebroides but there is still a species of afra . Only part of the location variants changed to zebroides. Cryptoheros sajica when I bapped them a year ago are now Amatitliana sajica and so on. Is it possible to have synonymous names somewhere on the list. When it comes to a species has hasn't been officially placed ( like anything with the sp. after the genus) and a year later is placed as a same species like Tropheus sp. "Red moliro" which I keep is now tropheus moori " moliro" . Been placed as a same species already existing . Just a location variant. What happens in those cases if I bap a few same genus with with the Sp." whatever " . Here is an example of other fish I keep
    Placidochromis sp. " phenochilius Tanzania" , placidochromis sp. " phenochilius gissel" gome and placidochromis phenochilius mdoka. I would be able to bap all 3 as seperate species. What happens if they become listed as all placidochromis phenochilius and just being location variants of the same fish? In the future no one could do the same and get full points for all three. Would I be docked because they could possibly be found the same species when science gets around to placing them?
  4. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Posted this as it can be confusing for some if they aren't reading every week what's changed and what's been placed where. If people aren't keeping up I can see the confusion and extra work that BAP Committee has to do. Maybe Tear the chart apart and maybe delete everything that hasn't been spawned yet because alot of it has old genus and species names. Maybe someone can update what has been spawned and place it under what is current and correct. Having a synonymous name under or next to the species will help people if their not sure if there has been a change because the majority of people in the hobby either go by what they have known the fish as for years. One of my favorites , pseudotropheus Demasoni . No longer valid . Pretty much everyone who keeps these will always call them pseudotropheus Demasoni (some call them Damensoni, lol) . Anyways they are now chindongo Demasoni . If someone hasn't caught up with the changes they are still going to go by Psuedotropheus. On our BAP point chart it's pseudotropheus. I see where someone could think it's a different fish if they are not keeping up with what's current and just going off the list
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2017
  5. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Yesterday we had some chindongo Demasoni . I bet there was at least someone who thought they were something different or was wondering what's up with that. I agree research needs to be done by those participating in BAP so we aren't all Bapping a same fish under different names. I myself need to make sure my spawning reports are in order and correct and not confusing to who is putting them into the computer.
  6. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    My thoughts on the species point list. Take every species off that hasn't been bapped. Make a new list of what has been bapped and also have a synonymous name so people can see that it has been bapped under a previous genus or species change if applicable. For ornamental fish, hybrid strains , ect. It should be recognized or established strains. I could come up with a thousand guppy variants from AOC guppies lol. I know it's alot of work for BAP Committee. Just some ideas that make sense . It is a large revenue for the club so it is a very important program. Conservation, keeping location variants true to nature, being up to date with the science in the hobby.
    Sean S likes this.
  7. bahamafj11

    bahamafj11 Well-Known Member

    Dude. You just made my head hurt a little.
  8. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    :D
  9. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    Yes... use the common name line for common name, variety, location, strain or color form. We can make a change to the submission form. Not sure when we will get to that.
    SteveS likes this.
  10. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    Great example of a fish that has changed names many times relatively recently. Excellent that you found the correct name.
    Dave and SteveS like this.
  11. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    Right now they are all considered different species the way that the MAAH BAP is defining species. If they are eventually all lumped into one species, then they would differ only in location variety. Yes, right now you could turn them all in and get the separate pointing for each. If they were all the same species now, you would get full points or one location variety, and then 5 points each for the other varieties. Once points have been awarded in a situation like this, they cannot be taken away from you. So spawn them now while they are separate species!
    SteveS likes this.
  12. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    Right now they are all considered different species the way that the MAAH BAP is defining species. If they are eventually all lumped into one species, then they would differ only in location variety. Yes, right now you could turn them all in and get the separate pointing for each. If they were all the same species now, you would get full points or one location variety, and then 5 points each for the other varieties. Once points have been awarded in a situation like this, they cannot be taken away from you. So spawn them now while they are separate species!

    We are working on making the entire system more user friendly and moving from a spreadsheet to a database system. We are hoping to have it ready for the start of the 2017/2018 BAP year. The more we have to do with the old system, the longer it will take to finish the new system. But we are going to try to make some changes to the charts to make them more clear now.
    SteveS likes this.
  13. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    Taking all the unspawned species out of the charts is something we want to do. We are not sure if we are going to go as far as correcting all the species that will stay in the list, since we also could use that time to build the new database system.
    SteveS likes this.
  14. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    Yep... this is one of the things that prompted the posting of the verifying nomenclature tutorial.
  15. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    These are already addressed in the rules of BAP. Only established and recognized strains of fish are acceptable. You cannot breed mutts, give them names and submit them as something different. If you establish a pure-breeding strain you can make an argument for naming it, but the current BAP committee leans toward commercially available color forms and strains. Pure-breeding color strains that are available from many different sources (breeders, stores, fish farms, etc...) are established.
    SteveS likes this.
  16. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Chindongo Demasoni is actually current and correct . A few months back they revised some pseudotropheus and renamed a couple others. Information of that was posted in the information section on cichlidae.com and revised on CA catalog of fishes. Should it have labled as Psuedotropheus Demasoni since it is on our already bapped by someone list , or its new genus name?
  17. tjudy

    tjudy Advisory Board Staff Member

    It should have been labeled Chindango demasoni, because that is the current status valid name in the CAAS database. The bag was labeled 'Chindango sp. 'demasoni', and was caught by the BAP committee and Sean before the auction started, but it is hard to make those changes. It would be awesome if these mistakes did not happen in auctions, but the goal of the tutorial is to get the names going into the BAP forms correct. This is actually an example of the member doing the right thing by using new nomenclature. He just got the format of the name wrong. We caught it.

    When putting descriptions on auction bags and the auction description, referring to an old name is very helpful. There is no problem saying 'Chindango demasoni (formerly Ps. demasoni)' so that members who may not be aware of the name change will know what the fish is. You can also put that on the BAP form... which can help the BAP committee verify the name change faster.
    Dave, Mike F and SteveS like this.
  18. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Thank you for the replies. I agree with everything on your thread and I learned a lot more. I myself read, search, study and learn as much as I can . I made a thread were we can all post news and changes or a place for questions. Just on cichlids though because they rule the world.
  19. Sean S

    Sean S Executive Board

    I would like to suggest that it might be a good topic, albeit some may get bored or lost if done wrong, some may anyway, to speak about how taxonomy and nomenclature works. It probably wouldn't need to be a full meeting but maybe if we do another group of mini talks that could be one of them.

    Being a trained biologist and a scientific name nerd I would be willing to put something together but I am sure there are others who could do the same.
  20. SteveS

    SteveS Executive Board

    Make sure to add in how onomastics ( onomatology) and Etymology play a role in nomenclature. That will keep everyone's attention so no one falls asleep then .
    Sean S likes this.

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